Great post by Danny Finkelstein which chronicles the leaks that Gordon brown received and promoted in much the same way as Damien Green. Funny old world!
18 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Interesting. I read this entirely the other way. The list of people like Thatcher, Major, Portillo et al whinging about the use of leaks by the opposition just goes to show what awful hypocrites the Tories are being now. It was bad then, but OK now? And, just to be clear, the argument does work the other way, too. If Labour ministers start moaning about the use of leaks, they too are shameless hypocrites.
"The list of people like Thatcher, Major, Portillo et al whinging about the use of leaks by the opposition just goes to show what awful hypocrites the Tories are being now."
Interesting reasoning you have there. Let's illustrate it a different way. There is a group of snetient letters each with their own views and opinion in an organisation called the Alphabet. The Alphabet has 26 separate members,, X, Y and Z and others complain about incident 1. When the letter of the Alphabet did not complain about Incident 1 but do complain about Incident 2 in a way contradictory to the complaints about Incident 1 they are actually hypocrites because they belong to the Alphabet and some of the Alphabet disagreed with them once.
Of course the point in the Finkelstein's post is not that the Tories complained about the leaks. It is that the leaks occured without any police investigation, arrests otr anything such as that, and it just so happens, by happy coincidence, that the MP involved is now Prime minister which raises the question, why are the Police suddenly interested in such things now.
"The Tories" could mean "the Tories as a whole", in other words, "all Tories". Comments about "the Tories" would therefore be generalizations about all of them.
On the other hand, in the context of this and related threads, "the Tories" could also quite easily be taken to mean "the Tories who are whinging about this", in other words, acting as a shorthand for the longer phrase. In that case, it would not necessarily involve a blanket generalization about "all Tories".
Perhaps I'm getting carried away here! Next I'll be making feeble points about 'straw man' arguments...
well it could mean that if you had said that but you didn't say. You said:
"Thatcher, Major, Portillo et al whinging about the use of leaks by the opposition just goes to show what awful hypocrites the Tories are being now. It was bad then, but OK now?"
It wasn't bad then, it wasn't bad now. I am a Tory, and I am moaning about it. So how pray tell am I a hypocrite unless you are making a fallacious circumstantial connection based upon the element "tory[ies]"?
I didn't say that you had. I asked, based on the fact that I am a Tory, and I am whiiging/moaning about it, how can I be a hypocrite unless you are making a fallacious circumstantial connection based upon the element "tory[ies]"?
Each side will always whine and moan about the use of leaks by the opposition. That's normal. However whining and moaning isn't using the police to arrest and hold for 7 hours a member of Parliament.
I am sure you are inventive enough to find other ways of being a hypocrite, Dizzy, without having to rely on anon's 'fallacious circumstantial connection'. You've managed it often enough in the past.
Hmm as I just said, I didn't say that you did say that. I simply asked you a question based on what you had previously said. I'm pretty sure you don't think I am a hypocrite on this matter even though I ama Tory, and I am whinging about it.
My point was not based on the element 'tory[ies]'. As I've already said, I implicitly qualified the term, referring to that sub-group of Tories who are whinging about Green's arrest now, yet also moaned about Brown, Cook et al doing the same as Green in the 80s and 90s. If you're not in that sub-group, I don't think you're a hypocrite, if you are then I do.
We're not special. Thinking that we are is what's led to our rapacious destruction of the planet and the appalling way we treat other living creatures.
18 comments:
Interesting. I read this entirely the other way. The list of people like Thatcher, Major, Portillo et al whinging about the use of leaks by the opposition just goes to show what awful hypocrites the Tories are being now. It was bad then, but OK now? And, just to be clear, the argument does work the other way, too. If Labour ministers start moaning about the use of leaks, they too are shameless hypocrites.
"The list of people like Thatcher, Major, Portillo et al whinging about the use of leaks by the opposition just goes to show what awful hypocrites the Tories are being now."
Interesting reasoning you have there. Let's illustrate it a different way. There is a group of snetient letters each with their own views and opinion in an organisation called the Alphabet. The Alphabet has 26 separate members,, X, Y and Z and others complain about incident 1. When the letter of the Alphabet did not complain about Incident 1 but do complain about Incident 2 in a way contradictory to the complaints about Incident 1 they are actually hypocrites because they belong to the Alphabet and some of the Alphabet disagreed with them once.
Of course the point in the Finkelstein's post is not that the Tories complained about the leaks. It is that the leaks occured without any police investigation, arrests otr anything such as that, and it just so happens, by happy coincidence, that the MP involved is now Prime minister which raises the question, why are the Police suddenly interested in such things now.
Yes, I'm aware that's the point Fink is making. But I'm making a different one about Tory hypocrisy, one you steadfastedly refuse to engage with.
Not at all, anyone who complained and shouted about Brown leaking then who is complaining in the reverse way about Green now is a hypocrite.
However, where you started by referring to specifc people you ended by talking about "the Tories" (plural).
"The Tories" could mean "the Tories as a whole", in other words, "all Tories". Comments about "the Tories" would therefore be generalizations about all of them.
On the other hand, in the context of this and related threads, "the Tories" could also quite easily be taken to mean "the Tories who are whinging about this", in other words, acting as a shorthand for the longer phrase. In that case, it would not necessarily involve a blanket generalization about "all Tories".
Perhaps I'm getting carried away here! Next I'll be making feeble points about 'straw man' arguments...
well it could mean that if you had said that but you didn't say. You said:
"Thatcher, Major, Portillo et al whinging about the use of leaks by the opposition just goes to show what awful hypocrites the Tories are being now. It was bad then, but OK now?"
It wasn't bad then, it wasn't bad now. I am a Tory, and I am moaning about it. So how pray tell am I a hypocrite unless you are making a fallacious circumstantial connection based upon the element "tory[ies]"?
That is a very good point but for one thing. Where have I said you personally are a hypocrite, Dizzy?
I didn't say that you had. I asked, based on the fact that I am a Tory, and I am whiiging/moaning about it, how can I be a hypocrite unless you are making a fallacious circumstantial connection based upon the element "tory[ies]"?
But I'm not saying you are a hypocrite.
Each side will always whine and moan about the use of leaks by the opposition. That's normal. However whining and moaning isn't using the police to arrest and hold for 7 hours a member of Parliament.
I am sure you are inventive enough to find other ways of being a hypocrite, Dizzy, without having to rely on anon's 'fallacious circumstantial connection'. You've managed it often enough in the past.
Hmm as I just said, I didn't say that you did say that. I simply asked you a question based on what you had previously said. I'm pretty sure you don't think I am a hypocrite on this matter even though I ama Tory, and I am whinging about it.
"You've managed it often enough in the past." - as has the vast majority of the human race. It's what makes us special.
My point was not based on the element 'tory[ies]'. As I've already said, I implicitly qualified the term, referring to that sub-group of Tories who are whinging about Green's arrest now, yet also moaned about Brown, Cook et al doing the same as Green in the 80s and 90s. If you're not in that sub-group, I don't think you're a hypocrite, if you are then I do.
We're not special. Thinking that we are is what's led to our rapacious destruction of the planet and the appalling way we treat other living creatures.
Legal challenged launched against Mandelson.
As their release says: ‘Lord Mandelson, in our view, is acting unlawfully.’
FFS why are people who post as "anonymous" generally such annoying, pedantic fuckwits?
My post here draws on the Times editorial piece
http://adamsmith.wordpress.com/2008/11/29/10670/
My belief is that leaks are part of politics for MPs,and think the action by the police is outrageous
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