It seems Hazel Blears has found herself in a "race row" and it's got something to do with her saying that the immigrants are "under cutting wages". The Independent is reporting it on its front page although the link to the story is not working (at least not at 7.20am) so I don't know the details.
However, on the basis of the title it seems this is almost an echo of recent calls by Brown of "British jobs for British citizens". I have to admit this is getting all very bizarre in a looking glass kind of way. Labour politicians saying things that would be leapt upon as racism if a Tory said it.
Frankly I think it's great that immigrants are undercutting wages, that's called market forces at work and it's why I am, personally, a great supporter of massive economic immigration into the UK. If business needs labour and cannot find it amongst the local populace it should be able to find it elsewhere, and immigration is the key to that.
It's not only bizarre that Labour politicians should be talking the way they do but richly ironic too, as it is the unintended consequence of their own policy that has brought this situation about. The way in which they have tinkered with the welfare state so that it embeds dependency, whilst simultaneously telling all our children they're geniuses through an education system where everyone gets prizes.
It's almost self-evident that we rely on immigrant labour because British labour is either too comfortable living off the state or too arrogant to take a crap job. Add to this the belief that has been instilled by Labour that the "Government should fix things" and you end up with marginal extremist parties like the national socialist BNP exploiting discontent.
Instead of analysing the causal links between they're own policies and the situation they're currently witnessing though, they just go for more social engineering.
23 comments:
Business will always "need" labour, but if they're the only interest group having a say there would be no end to massive economic immigration into the UK.
I have no problem with massive economic immigration into the UK as I said. It is the consequence of the rest of Labour policies.
I don't support limits to immigration. Immigration happens because of the structure you put in place that cause it. If you have a problem with it then solve the reasons it happens, rather than setting arbitrary limits.
Personally I am a big winner from recent economic migration to the UK as the proportion of people in Eastern Europe who speak English and understand my culture has ballooned in recent years.
But as you allude to getting British adults working is of far greater importance.
With stagnant post-tax incomes and rising housing costs, the combined effect of government policy appears to be creating a situation for the average British working family which is akin to walking up a downward escalator.
err I didn't say getting British adults working is of far greater importance.
I broadly agree with you when you say that we rely on immigrant labour because British adults are not taking certain jobs and I also agree with you when you identify benefits and education policy as a significant root cause of this unwillingness to work.
You say that business needs immigrants if it can't find workers from the local populace. I find that comment arguable as firms can pay labour more, replace labour with capital or move parts of their business offshore.
But if you are using the assertions above and are critical of Labour then surely unembedding dependency (which is what I am talking about) is of foremost importance. Not really sure at all what your actual line of thinking is on this?
Shame on you Dizzy with your support of mass economic immigration, you should know full well the amount of abuse of work permits in the IT sector. Only a few years ago it was estimated that there were over 30,000 freelance IT professionals ‘resting’, but at the same time the home office were issuing work permits at the rate of 100 each and every working day. Salaried staff have been told to train their replacements or they would not get their redundancy. Thousands of professionals have had their careers and lives destroyed by the fraudulent work permits.
The long term damage to the UK economy by displacement of the indigenous skilled people is huge. Why should any young person bother to go through university to gain skills, but face the distinct possibility that their career won’t be long enough to pay off the debts. We are told that we are supposed to work for more years. How can that happen when people are disposed of and replaced so easily.
The skills shortage is largely a myth. There are plenty of people with good skills around. However, many employers would rather have cheaper imports.
The market dictates.Touch shit.
The problems arise when other parts of the economy aren't flexible enough to absorb immigrants - houses aren't built quickly enough, public services can't cope etc.
Dizzy, you said: The market dictates.Touch shit.
If it was a free market I would agree with you.
However, in this case it is an artificial and engineered market, specifically designed to ensure that local workers are overwhelmed with regulations (IR35, 660) then overlooked in favour of immigrant workers.
Go talk to any IT recruitment company and ask them how many responses on average they get for each vacancy advertised. It is still running at approximately 200.
There is no skills shortage, there never has been a skills shortage. What there has been a shortage of is qualified people who will work at below the market average, therefore depress the market and keep the costs of the PFI programme down.
That is what it was engineered for, so all the IT Consultancy firms who keep getting awarded the PFI and IT contracts can outsource their work for as little as possible, increasing their margins to the maximum, with the collusion of the Treasury.
Local IT workers, especially at the management level have been forced to change industries, forced into bankruptcy or just don't get the work and are on the dole.
Dizzy, Fancy a 50% pay cut?
Seriously you miss some of the implications of mass economic migration.
Firstly, as a Conservative I am broadly free market, but not slavishly so.
The migration you are speaking of has many effects one of which is that employers don't have to work so hard to attract and retain labour. That is fine if you don't care about those who are at the bottom of the pile. I do
We will always have a number of people who either can't do skilled work, and if you are constantly prepared to bring in competition against them who will live in worse conditions and work for less money than you will constantly be building social problems.
Further more as migrants come in they affect somewhere where we do not operate a free market, and that is in housing. You can't just buy any bit of land and build on it. You need to get planning permission and so on. So you can't decide as you have been priced out of work as a brick layer to start your own small holding doing something else.
What is more, there are several professions which do well out the the situation because they operate as effective closed shops like lawyers. The net effect is that the relative price of professional advice rises out of all proportion as does the cost of housing.
We don't live in a completely free market, and acting as if we do will destroy society.
I could go on, but perhaps I should write an article about it on my own blog!
Dizzy, the last two replies that you, have accepted have not supported your statement of let the market decide. That is because this is not a case of market operations. In the case of IT work permits it is totally a matter of corruption. If there was a honest and independent audit of all the work permits issued since this current government came to power it will be found that the claims that local staff could not be found would be fraudulent.
I really don’t know why you have this attitude. Being an IT professional yourself you must know the reality of what has gone on. If you want evidence then please contact me directly, but everything is available to anyone who looks.
Almost everyone has an acquaintance, friend or relative that has been stitched up by this. Every MP must have a load of correspondence about it. Professional bodies, trade unions, and many others have supplied evidence, but nobody in government or opposition will take up the issue; it’s all very strange.
OK, you're talking about something completely different. But I should say that in my expeirence in IT there are indeed tonnes of people out there with "skills". Sadly they're just on paper most of the time and they're shit compared to the Indian who is seeking work and won't ask for as much money.
If you find your job being taken by someone that offers better value to your employer, take that as a lesson. Find something else where you are better value than the available workpool, maybe cut the amount you ask for or work harder, or both.
No one owes any of us a living, we have to make ourselves attractive enough as employees to earn one.
exactly.
Dizzy, there are no doubt lots of good immigrants available, and yes a lot of them are Indian. However the problem is that if you keep allowing unlimited immigration there is no incentive to train our own people and what is more you build large under classes.
Then there is the brain drain that happens to the country you are taking the employees from.
If there is a problem with people who are only any good on paper, that is a function of poor education, the professional certification schemes and the way employers select people looking more for paper than experience.
I disagree entirely. Look when people like Blear and Brown talk about "British jobs for British people" they're not talking about white collar skilled labour, they;re talking blue collar labour.
The vast majority of immigrant labour in this country, which is happening in high numbers, is relatively low-skilled jobs that arrogant lazy Brits refuse to take.
There isn't an immigration problem, there is an attitude problem amongst people in our own society toward work. Arbitrarily banging on about immigration being the problem is actually missing the cause of the immigration.
As long as there are cheap jobs to be had, and as long Brits refuse to take them, then your immigrant population will grow.
You don't need to control economic immigration, you need to change society's attitude toward the opportunities available to them. Economic migrants "get it", they come here for opportunity. Sadly, the vast majority of Brits think the world owes them a living. It doesn't.
Dizzy, we live in a country where a single parent with two kids who works 16 hours per week will get £480 per week yet a married couple with the same would have to (on minimum wage) work 116 hours per week.
On the other hand they would earn £25K per year on the social.
What is also key here is housing costs. Immigrants in low skilled jobs live in far more cramped conditions than anyone who has been here for a while would find acceptable.
Our economy is skewed already. It is not a question of our indigenous blue collar workers being too lazy (though some may be) but the fact that to be economic the job has to pay a lot more, otherwise you earn more on benefits.
Furthermore your economic argument ignores all the social consequences of mass immigration.
Oh, and another thing, you seem to ignore the effect it has on those prepared to work but now have to take a pay cut as the market price for their labour has dropped, quite possibly in some cases to below what they could get on the social.
How would you like a 50% pay cut?
Dizzy, we live in a country where a single parent with two kids who works 16 hours per week will get £480 per week yet a married couple with the same would have to (on minimum wage) work 116 hours per week.
On the other hand they would earn £25K per year on the social.
Agreed, but what the hell does that have to do with immigration? Surely that is a problem with the welfare system not because of the evil Poles?
Our economy is skewed already. It is not a question of our indigenous blue collar workers being too lazy (though some may be) but the fact that to be economic the job has to pay a lot more, otherwise you earn more on benefits.
Even if I accept that, what does it have to do with immigration. Here's a novel idea, cut the benefit and "make work pay" as Frank Field once said before he was fired.
Furthermore your economic argument ignores all the social consequences of mass immigration.
Too woolly. Define "social consequences"
Oh, and another thing, you seem to ignore the effect it has on those prepared to work but now have to take a pay cut as the market price for their labour has dropped, quite possibly in some cases to below what they could get on the social...How would you like a 50% pay cut?
Having a 50% paycut would suck. However, that's matter for business to decide, I don't believe that the Government should have any place whatsoever in defining what wages should be. Of course I wouldn't like a 50% pay cut, but if it happened I would accept it and not start complaining about how it was all the immigrants fault.
I am free trade free marketeer, thus I also believe in the free movement of labour. In my view all the tariff of NAFTA, EFTA, EU etc should be scrapped and barriers to the movement to labour should be removed too. I don't beleive in fortress Britain.
I should add that whilst I beleive, in principle in a total free labour market, I also realsie that acheiving such ends in brtiain quickly would be radical and dangerous from an unintended consequences point of view. It ought to be a goal to strive towards though with a good conservative approach to change.
Dizzy said - Surely that is a problem with the welfare system not because of the evil Poles?
Bit unfair of you to drop that on Benedict. It's normally the left that try to associate anti-immigration arguments with anti-immigrant feeling.
I wasn't dropping it on him, it was an oblique refernce to Little Britain.
I too work in the IT industry and am subjected to "wage constriction" thanks to the fast-track visa system.
But that's OK. It only pisses me off when I still pay more for services:
Where are the fast-track Indian doctors? Sack all the £200K/year NHS 'consultants' and bring in some cheap labour.
Same for Lawyers and Finance professionals. Then I could *afford* to live with a 50% pay cut.
And Civil Servants. Wait - how about we just sack 'em and don't replace with cheap labour.
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