tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post3171600027570421177..comments2023-12-11T08:49:46.305+00:00Comments on Dizzy Thinks: Fisking the BNP's Economic PolicyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger70125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-23136234418732503202009-06-09T10:11:46.257+01:002009-06-09T10:11:46.257+01:00"The left has largely championed anti-racism,..."The left has largely championed anti-racism, whilst the right has nurtured and harboured racists. "<br /><br />What garbage. The left has championed racism to the point of implementing laws designed to discriminate against people based specifically on their ethnicity, and also their gender. Not to mention the incessant race baiting used by left wing fuckwits whenever they feel they are losing an argument.<br /><br />The political right moved on from such bigoted and primitive thinking decades ago.Bsodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-983692156776323832009-06-09T08:30:32.635+01:002009-06-09T08:30:32.635+01:00Carl, I;m not sure what to say really, yes, you ma...Carl, I;m not sure what to say really, yes, you may have a point on how some Tories were racist, but to be perfectly honest I know plenty of Labour people who are too, I know of Councils where non-whites are "window dressing" but constantly excluded.<br /><br />On the t-shirt part, what the image represents? The Che image, and the Hammer and Sickle do not represent fluffyness. They, like the Swastika, represent mass murder and political oppression of a global scale. Saying its "cool" is nonsense.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-89678260597685300602009-06-08T17:23:09.766+01:002009-06-08T17:23:09.766+01:00never said you was Dizzy, so keep 'em on.
And...never said you was Dizzy, so keep 'em on.<br /><br />And response to my explanation...?Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-16748636380766084592009-06-06T09:03:47.941+01:002009-06-06T09:03:47.941+01:00I'm not here at your beckon call I'm afrai...I'm not here at your beckon call I'm afraid. I left work for the day and did not check mail or comments until this morning when I would be in a position to respond to them.<br /><br /> I will respond fully to all tomorrowdizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-18473227331895483882009-06-05T20:11:14.944+01:002009-06-05T20:11:14.944+01:00Very good try, very good indeed. But you are wrong...Very good try, very good indeed. But you are wrong, Dizzy. The left has largely championed anti-racism, whilst the right has nurtured and harboured racists. <br /><br />Your fisking of the BNP policy crap is entertaining but utterly bogus. People don't vote BNP in any expectation that Nick Griffin is going to become PM - they do it because they support the anti-immigration racist claptrap that is the BNP's central message. The other stuff is irrelevant.Lord Snootynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-66776476076145140942009-06-05T17:23:25.390+01:002009-06-05T17:23:25.390+01:00c'mon Diz, it's been an hour, why haven...c'mon Diz, it's been an hour, why haven't you approved my response?Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-70703492460907663962009-06-05T16:35:12.725+01:002009-06-05T16:35:12.725+01:00Okay then, the point I'm making is... I really...Okay then, the point I'm making is... I really don't think they did [speak out] because, deep down, they didn't really disagree with them.<br /><br />And I think that's why people still hold the belief that the right supports or at least tolerates racism. <br /><br />I know you may think that unfair, but that's what I really believe has happened. <br />Whether you think it's fair or right or not, the past has left an awful smudge on the Tories. I know Tories who aren't racists, but because of the silence from the right during the 80s race riots (or sometimes outright slurs against blacks and Asians by prominent Tory MPs during those riots) the thing has stuck and many of todays Tory's are upset at being tarred with that brush. <br /><br />I think the T-shirt icon thing goes like this: <br />Che "represents" fighting the power, much like a black panther salute on a T-shirt. I'll not quibble or argue with you over what Che actually did or did not do, but note that it is a semantic issue - it's what the image represents. The Che image is "iconic". He has transcended the politics to represent an ideal of "freedom" etc. The hammer and sickle is much the same, as it represents old style Soviet collectivism, joining forces, the people power and all that malarky. <br /><br />No, I'm not saying it's all good, I'm just pointing out that that's what it represents semantically to the wearers/readers, rather than in actuality, and thus makes a "cool" T-shirt image to that person. I'm sure some people also wear them because they really love every little bit of Che/Communism. <br /><br />But then some people thought the little crocodile above their left breast meant they were cool and trendy. So there really is no accounting for taste. <br /><br />But as I say, I think it's rather what the wearer thinks that image represents, not what they actually think about the intricacies of the person/organisation. <br /><br />Nazi T-shirts don't really need to worry about subtle semantics... it's all there and frankly I don't think anyone really quibbles at what a Nazi symbol means. That's why it's so easily condemned. We ALL know exactly what the Nazis were and what they did. Not everyone knows all about Che, many just know a tiny trendy slice and that's the bit they wear with pride.<br /><br />How's that?Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-74583685153018193782009-06-05T16:10:28.500+01:002009-06-05T16:10:28.500+01:00Because, Carl, the contest for the white working c...Because, Carl, the contest for the white working class's votes is between the parties of the left and the BNP/NF. The right oppose the BNP/NF in the same way that they oppose the SWP and the RCP - they aren't a relevant part of the political discourse. The vigour of the left in opposing the BNP is arguably evidence that the BNP is in direct competition with the parties of the left: civil wars are always more vicious.<br /><br />Point at issue today for example. In one of the urban Derbyshire seats the Tories beat Labour, who were beaten into third place by the BNP. It looks as though there as a pretty much straight switch from Labour to BNP.<br /><br />Ultimately my question remains: if the BNP are a right-wing party, why are they taking votes off Labour and not the Tories?Tim Jhttp://www.partyreptile.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-50920321552794516312009-06-05T16:03:19.060+01:002009-06-05T16:03:19.060+01:00That wasn't Voltaire.
Yes I know, but it didn...<b><i>That wasn't Voltaire.</i></b><br /><br />Yes I know, but it didn't make the response any less understandable<br /><br /><b><i>"So, the right didn't oppose the BNP/NF because they thought that would be against free speech?"</i></b><br /><br />I don't know. You asked me a question and I responded with a possible reason with a question mark on the end?<br /><br /><b><i>Are you sure the right were thinking "no, no, you go ahead and beat up the Paki's, because you're merely exercising your right to free speech and I applaud that sentiment to the death" or they just didn't give a toss?"</i></b><br /><br />As per the previous response, I didn't say I was sure of anything. You asked me why some people who were around when I was between five and 14 years old did something. I responded with a possible theory but ended it with a question mark. <br /><br /><b><i>Either way, they could've at least said, 'while I respect your view, and will defend it to the death, I do feel you're a bunch of racist cocks for your views of our coloured brethren'.</i></b><br /><br />Yes they could've, whats the point you're making though.<br /><br /><b><i>The Che thing's easy to answer. Che on your chest looked cooler than Nixon or Ford. Kissinger however, would've looked cool because of his crazy hair and he was a chick-magnet.</i></b><br /><br />I wasn't just talking about then, I was talking about now as well. It;s not just Che of course, but there is something worrying is there not that wearing a Nazi t-shirt is condemned, quite rightly, because of what it represnts, but wearing a Che Guvara, or hammer and sickle is not. <br /><br />You'll note that in this post and other, I am consistent in saying the Communist and Nazis should bne despised with equal vigour.<br /><br />Regarding the hair, I'm not sure I actually understand either (a) how its a dig, or (b) why. It used to be worse and I did out of choice.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-14105948602839228722009-06-05T15:49:55.016+01:002009-06-05T15:49:55.016+01:00That wasn't Voltaire. It wasn't even Cabar...That wasn't Voltaire. It wasn't even Cabaret Voltaire for that matter. <br /><br />So, the right didn't oppose the BNP/NF because they thought that would be against free speech?<br /><br />That's rather worrying in some respects, if it's not too infuriating for you to hear such a reactionary opinion. Are you sure the right were thinking "no, no, you go ahead and beat up the Paki's, because you're merely exercising your right to free speech and I applaud that sentiment to the death" or they just didn't give a toss?<br /><br />Either way, they could've at least said, 'while I respect your view, and will defend it to the death, I do feel you're a bunch of racist cocks for your views of our coloured brethren'. I mean, they wouldn't even have had to get up from their leather armchair for that statement to The Times, would they?<br /><br />The Che thing's easy to answer. Che on your chest looked cooler than Nixon or Ford. Kissinger however, would've looked cool because of his crazy hair and he was a chick-magnet.<br /><br />I shouldn't have mentioned the hair thing, should I? Sorry.Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-63398071291729220822009-06-05T15:38:39.506+01:002009-06-05T15:38:39.506+01:00"if anyone can be a racist, how come it appea...<b><i>"if anyone can be a racist, how come it appears only the left are the anti-racists while the right just sit on their cushions at home'?"</i></b><br /><br />A preference towards postive liberty and a Volatairan attitude toward speech being free however offensive it may be to whatever group it might appear to segregate?<br /><br />One could of course throw the question on its head and ask why it is that the Left think Che Guvara is an icon worth wearing on their chest?dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-64244601267737459422009-06-05T15:33:20.687+01:002009-06-05T15:33:20.687+01:00Fair point. Well made. 'Anyone can be a racist...Fair point. Well made. 'Anyone can be a racist, and their politics isn't necessarily the cause of their racism.' <br /><br />Now, could you comment on why, during the 80s, the only organisations/groups who appeared to speak out and target the BNP/NF were those from the left. <br /><br />Or, to paraphrase 'if anyone can be a racist, how come it appears only the left are the anti-racists while the right just sit on their cushions at home'?<br /><br />And, btw, I don't think it's an unfair or retarded question, so don't do your usual explosion of vitriol or expletives, eh? There could be kids watching this...Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-85014274938067174612009-06-05T15:10:32.957+01:002009-06-05T15:10:32.957+01:00"Seeing as you regularly regard Ireland and o..."Seeing as you regularly regard Ireland and others as responsible for everything ever said by the left ever ever ever..."<br /><br />Actually I regularly regard Ireland as responsible for the shit that he comes out with and whenevr I reference him it is with reference to what he says.<br /><br />As for the other bit, no I;m not saying that 'anyone can be a racist, but they're more likely to be from the left'. I;m saying anyone can be racist and whether they are right or left is not a kety factor in whether they are racist.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-61420406366785009032009-06-05T15:05:56.070+01:002009-06-05T15:05:56.070+01:00Seeing as you regularly regard Ireland and others ...Seeing as you regularly regard Ireland and others as responsible for everything ever said by the left ever ever ever...<br /><br />Well, having your cake and eating it could suggest you've set the retard standard. <br /><br />What ARE you saying now?<br /><br />"this is not about me saying they are not right wing per se, ratehr it is about me saying that you can be racist irrespective of where you sit on the political spetrum and, on the balance and addition of policy the BNP sit to the left,"<br /><br />Evidently, (because you don't want to include any history as you get upset at the concept of past faults being attributed to current members), you're only content with (and I paraphrase before you screech "where did I say that?") 'anyone can be a racist, but they're more likely to be from the left'....<br /><br />Top fisking Diz. Want to come killing kittens to free up some of that tension?Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-52168070907557394482009-06-05T14:50:44.035+01:002009-06-05T14:50:44.035+01:00I see, so because of the party I am in currently I...I see, so because of the party I am in currently I am responsible for everything that party has ever said ever?<br /><br />What complete and total wank of the highest order. What Thatcher or anyone else did or didn't say when i was five years old has fuck all to do with me and what I am saying now. <br /><br />If you think it does have relvance then you're a retard.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-90723946259533643902009-06-05T14:45:09.971+01:002009-06-05T14:45:09.971+01:00I doubt you were the only member of the right in t...I doubt you were the only member of the right in those days Dizzy, much as you like to place yourself in the centre of the universe. <br /><br />I seem to recall some seething vixen from Grantham and her mate Tebbit, Parkinson et al. <br /><br />Do us a favour and dig out their quotes decrying the evil of the NF/BNP, there's a good lad. I'm busy drowning kittens.Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-51779586601255954172009-06-05T14:35:28.446+01:002009-06-05T14:35:28.446+01:00"All through the 80s the right could hardly b...<b><i>"All through the 80s the right could hardly be heard criticising the NF or the BNP. How come?"</i></b><br /><br />I was no less than 5 and no more than 14?dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-60101809117081531072009-06-05T14:34:11.400+01:002009-06-05T14:34:11.400+01:00Shame that the AntiNaziLeague and the RockAgainstR...Shame that the AntiNaziLeague and the RockAgainstRacism lot didn't all come from the Right then Dizzy, eh? Unless you're saying that the Clash and Billy Bragg are actually Right-wniggers under all that blather about equality, etc.<br /><br />Now, if the luvvies and the musos from your side of the fence decided to actually stand up and be counted, perhaps it wouldn't be such a struggle to argue that the BNP are actually a left wing party. <br /><br />All through the 80s the right could hardly be heard criticising the NF or the BNP. How come?Carl Evehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03930750600999601721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-86765618447489430542009-06-05T12:38:55.990+01:002009-06-05T12:38:55.990+01:00They advertise themselves as "the Labour Part...They advertise themselves as "the Labour Party your parents voted for" and are making most of their gains in areas which ought to be Labour strongholds, so it's hardly ridiculous to describe them as left wing.<br /><br />I wrote a post about this a few days ago, which generally posited that parties like the Nf and the BNP tend to do better under an unpopular Labour government than under the Tories, whether popular or not. My reasoning was that portions of the White working class feel that, if they stop supporting Labour there is no other mainstream party for them.<br /><br />You're then stuck arguing that old Labour is right wing, or that the Bnp is a right wing party with prediminantly left wing voters or some such nonsense. The real position is that the BNP falls so far out of the mainstream that left and right are both inappropriate, and that the term right wing is used mainly to tag the Tories with guilty by association.Tim Jhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03705980028580424584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-34650224263986128182009-06-05T11:28:33.754+01:002009-06-05T11:28:33.754+01:00Hilarious. Tim Ireland totally owned.
These days,...Hilarious. Tim Ireland totally owned.<br /><br />These days, 'right wing' and 'left wing' refer to your views on economics and how inclined you are towards the free market. 'Authoritarian' and 'libertarian' refer to your views on social issues such as how far you feel the state should interfere with your life. Issues such as racism don't enter into this - it's strictly a personal trait that the BNP (who are left-wing authoritarians, no question) have chosen to make a political issue. They're racist socialists - fact. Personal traits don't necessarily affect your wider political views. Those with longer memories may remember a BBC TV show from the 1970s called 'Love Thy Neighbour', where the character of a white, patriotic, working-class man made jokes at the expense of his black neighbours. Guess what? He was written as a socialist...Laughing at Gordonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-18116518214966179342009-06-05T08:27:09.419+01:002009-06-05T08:27:09.419+01:00Minor problems here. Firstly, on the "most ba...Minor problems here. Firstly, on the "most basic historical definition" if we must use it, the BNP are anti-aristorcracy and anti-monarchy. So how that makes them like the French pro-monarchy pro-arsitocracy I shall not know.<br /><br />Additionally you are making the same mistake as Tim, arguing along the lines of:<br /><br />If "right" = "reactionary" then "reactionary" == "right". The problem is that there is reactionary attittude on the left. in fact, like racism, it spans the political spectrum.<br /><br />Incidnetally, your historical definition is wrong. The "left"in France was not "pro-free trade only" it was both. The earlier social theorists of the French revolutionaries were certainly not on the reactionary side but on trade they were not free marketeers either.<br /><br />I guess what I'm saying here is that your historical defintion is historically inaccurate and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny anyway because it is far to simplistic.<br /><br />As I said, this is not about me saying they are not right wing per se, ratehr it is about me saying that you can be racist irrespective of where you sit on the political spetrum and, on the balance and addition of policy the BNP sit to the left, hence the tag "white power socialists".dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-9766382985458193412009-06-04T23:34:15.603+01:002009-06-04T23:34:15.603+01:00Err, Dizzy, do you know the derivation of right-wi...Err, Dizzy, do you know the derivation of right-wing? It's from the French pro-religion, pro-monarchy, pro-aristocracy (and, as a fairly minor afterthought, anti-free-trade) party in the Legislative Assembly of 1791, who sat to the King's right. The group who sat to his left were socially liberal and pro-free-markets.<br /><br />(the concept of 'right wing' and 'pro-free-trade capitalism' being somehow definitionally similar barely existed pre-Thatcher, outside of the US at least)<br /><br />On that most basic historical definition, which category do you think the BNP fall into? Right = socially reactionary, or left = liberal free-marketeers?john bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13784096180652522939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-19451985074656939072009-06-04T21:51:42.237+01:002009-06-04T21:51:42.237+01:00Come to think of it, did Hitler even care? He jus...Come to think of it, did Hitler even care? He just fucking hated Jews. It's no good really in trying to work out what Hitler would do in the UK today because he was a product of a specific set of circumstances.<br /><br />I suppose what could happen if the BNP got powerful enough is that I could somehow be catapulted into a place where I would have a say on things....then you really would have something to fucking worry about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-5603148665151168772009-06-04T21:23:42.410+01:002009-06-04T21:23:42.410+01:00What is the exact definition of the word racist an...What is the exact definition of the word racist anyway?Psychopathic cuntnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-82925804039707790472009-06-04T20:15:29.066+01:002009-06-04T20:15:29.066+01:00The words "world" and "flat" h...The words "world" and "flat" have unambiguous meanings that everyone agrees on. The whole point is the words "left" and "right" don't - so either (a) you demand on your own definitions being used exclusively, even thought they're utterly out of sync with the language of the rest of the English-speaking world; or (b) you pay some attention to how people actually use these terms, according to which, resoundingly, the BNP are a right-wing organisation.Larry Teabaghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08283701267147459665noreply@blogger.com