tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post980023587434952128..comments2023-12-11T08:49:46.305+00:00Comments on Dizzy Thinks: Counterfactual Thought for the DayUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-27690204594208908412009-02-19T09:08:00.000+00:002009-02-19T09:08:00.000+00:00Attempts to Islamify the West cannot be DeniedIn a...<A HREF="http://tinyurl.com/yteq6q" REL="nofollow">Attempts to Islamify the West cannot be Denied</A><BR/><BR/>In addition Two MEP's have both stated, we should be nice to Muslims, so that when they become the Majority, they will be nice to us.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://bfbwwiii.blogspot.com/2007/10/frankfurt-subversion.html" REL="nofollow">smell the Coffee</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-16128627300694174962009-02-17T00:12:00.000+00:002009-02-17T00:12:00.000+00:00The bottom line is in the votes. Labour sees Musl...The bottom line is in the votes. <BR/><BR/>Labour sees Muslims as a homogeneous group that will all vote for you if you say the right things, and that will boost their marginals. <BR/><BR/>Lots of Christians, nominal or otherwise, aren't going to vote for this brand of Labour, regardless of how distasteful that might be for some. This is because, although no sensible, and I stress sensible, Christian (there are some about if you look) will profess themselves to be perfect, they don't much go for hypocrisy, lying, cheating, suppression of the individual and authoritarianism (yeah, really, surprise surprise!) and can recognise those, and their dangers, when they see them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-87781250545471399092009-02-16T00:36:00.000+00:002009-02-16T00:36:00.000+00:00I don't see a problem with this:'And they shall sa...I don't see a problem with this:<BR/>'And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die" (Deuteronomy 21:20-21).'<BR/><BR/>;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-49379245413904957032009-02-15T21:26:00.000+00:002009-02-15T21:26:00.000+00:00@JD good point. A Christian these days is unlikely...@JD good point. A Christian these days is unlikely to shove a fucking big sword through your head for farting in church.<BR/><BR/>Unless it's the father of the bride during the wedding vows.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-70069418027554035492009-02-15T19:40:00.000+00:002009-02-15T19:40:00.000+00:00Christianity experienced a reformation, or 'update...Christianity experienced a reformation, or 'update' as I like to consider it. Islam seems to be still stuck in the 8th. Century. Big problem!<BR/>JD. بارك الله اميركا<BR/><BR/>NO TO LISBON MEANS NO TO LISBON!<BR/>http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3805936JDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07844638457830471519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-66245569068117182752009-02-14T20:07:00.000+00:002009-02-14T20:07:00.000+00:00According to Portillo, didn't Emperor Constantine ...According to Portillo, didn't Emperor Constantine pretty much pick and choose which texts and Gospels make up the bible before giving it the big marketing campaign that made it what it is today?<BR/><BR/>All tosh anyway. Idlehands, envy and testosterone are the problem, religion is just the the blanket excuse.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08183497217006181941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-10548719815109759702009-02-14T18:57:00.000+00:002009-02-14T18:57:00.000+00:00this islam is not a religion it is a mafiathis islam is not a religion it is a mafiaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-89711630599540487122009-02-14T15:03:00.000+00:002009-02-14T15:03:00.000+00:00Surely this post is already a strong contender for...Surely this post is already a strong contender for a "Post of the Year" award... if there are such blog awards?Adam Faircloughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14317733369086299927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-65338273486025275192009-02-14T13:58:00.000+00:002009-02-14T13:58:00.000+00:00Dizzy, You should know better than to use McVeigh ...Dizzy, <BR/><BR/>You should know better than to use McVeigh as an example of "Christian" terrorism. He is an exception to the rule, not part of a precedent. Name me one single "Christian" terrorist group? You cannot, as there are none. On the other hand, let's look at the dozens and dozens of Islamic terror organizations. And before anyone gives the completely brainless example of the IRA and ETA - they want simple territorial gains and neither call for the downfall of democracy nor the imposition of a theocracy. All this moral relativist crap about all religions being prone violence no longer holds true, one cannot equate Christian violence of centuries ago with that of Muslims today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-26189901442424273942009-02-14T13:41:00.000+00:002009-02-14T13:41:00.000+00:00So Dizzy, I take it your comfortable with 'Mein Ka...So Dizzy, I take it your comfortable with 'Mein Kampf' being legal in Germany again and becoming a respected and legal mainstream belief once again, and you would not worry about the 99% moderate Nazis that result from this, but only the fundamentalists that want to implement Hitler's beliefs as he put them. Well, the Germans have come a long way since the days of blood and honour, so... why not? <BR/><BR/>----<BR/><BR/>Literature that incites people to hate others is always a problem, and all you've done here is to demonstrate why it's a problem to leave this intellectual poison in circulation without challenging it into oblivion. <BR/><BR/>And at what point does hate speech get a pass from you? Does it only have to be old enough -- ie, can we ressurrect Nazi ideology safely in (say) 400 years? There were many good things about it, if you ignore the euthanasia and genocide issues! (...) <BR/><BR/>Basically your position says that you don't take those threats seriously, and you have no problem with non-muslims being the official untermenschen in the Quran, because after all this time, after all those hundreds of years of brutal wars this religion waged against the rest of society, the modern muslims don't really mean it anymore. <BR/><BR/>Now, would you like to consider buying your crocodile food in bulk whilst you can still afford it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-83422174910306703892009-02-14T12:04:00.000+00:002009-02-14T12:04:00.000+00:00The Bible has 907 passages steeped in violence or ...The Bible has <A HREF="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html" REL="nofollow">907 passages</A> steeped in violence or cruelty, but the Koran a mere <A HREF="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html" REL="nofollow">520 passages</A>. I would also say God has the edge in quality over Allah: His violence is really violent.<BR/><BR/>God, it should be recalled, once killed almost everything in a flood - showing a penchant for genocide, and scant regard for animal rights and biodiversity. <BR/><BR/>Obviously, most people Christian or Muslim, do not take the violent passages as <I>instructions</I> - but <A HREF="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3369102968312745410" REL="nofollow">Wilders' film on the Koran</A> shows there are clerics that do, and there is a tendency to see extreme violence as acceptable and desirable. <BR/><BR/>The thing is, it isn't just 1% that hold extreme illiberal views that you mention in your counter-factual. Have a look at this <A HREF="http://www.imaginate.uk.com/MCC01_SURVEY/Site%20Download.pdf" REL="nofollow">2006 survey by GfK NOP Social Research</A>. 22% supported the London bombings (p34); 78% opposed free speech (favour punishment of those publishing the feeble Danish cartoons - p20); 30% would have liked to live under sharia law (p16); 45% believed 9/11 was an American-Israeli conspiracy (p.29). If this is a snapshot of the social fabric in Muslim communities, we should not be surprised if extremists thrive and demented clerics are lionised.<BR/><BR/>If people actually read them, they would see that the great sacred texts are in fact vile totalitarian manifestos... religion fills people with hatred and provides ideological cover for violence and all manner of injustice and bigotry. We should be reducing the space for it in public life and not closing the borders to people who wish to challenge it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-3345397200162615462009-02-14T00:06:00.000+00:002009-02-14T00:06:00.000+00:00Great post, Dizzy.Of course, given all these God b...Great post, Dizzy.<BR/>Of course, given all these God books have the same original source, they're all equally screwy.<BR/>Anyone who has any faculty of reason or confidence in their own existence has no need for the prepostrous crutch of religion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-21989328188258570682009-02-13T21:09:00.000+00:002009-02-13T21:09:00.000+00:00Dizzy,Just in case you are about to jump off a bri...Dizzy,<BR/><BR/>Just in case you are about to jump off a bridge whilst pulling your hair out I want to give you a word of encouragement. I thought your piece was brilliantly put, demonstrating your "counterfactual" (great word btw)view to make a point. Your point was well made and clearly understood. <BR/>I can't believe the majority of posters taking you literally and missing the entire thrust of what you said.<BR/><BR/>You can bet your bottom dollar that if the reverse had been true (as you contest) then Mr Wilders would never have been refused entry.<BR/><BR/>I had to laugh at your repost to OH though. I think if you read his post again you'll find his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. Irony is such a cruel master.<BR/><BR/>Keep it up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-7710003023733348822009-02-13T20:20:00.000+00:002009-02-13T20:20:00.000+00:00There is a perfectly sound basis for addressing yo...There is a perfectly sound basis for addressing you counterfactual, namely that a mark of civilisation is usually that majorities should not undertake gratuitous attacks on minorities. When it is the other way around it can be still be obnoxious and objectionable but it isn't as threatening. <BR/><BR/>A mark of nearly all totalitarian societies is that they have usually indulged in attacking and scapegoating minorities in order to keep the majority on side.<BR/><BR/>A better counterfactual would be to point to some of the attacks that take place on Christians in Moslem countries - and they do occur and are equally reprehensible.<BR/><BR/>As for the UK I do think that there have to be limits on the attacks and incitement which are aimed at minorities (And they need to be balance with protecting free speech) - I just think that it wasn't particularly intelligent to apply the law in this case - ridicule of that pathetic film would have been much more effective.tory boys never grow uphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11172736984147732661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-30098706872128186682009-02-13T18:09:00.000+00:002009-02-13T18:09:00.000+00:00Dizzy, you're wrong to say, "The Bible and the Kor...Dizzy, you're wrong to say, "The Bible and the Koran contain, in equal measure, hatred and violence in the name of faith and belief."<BR/><BR/>The Bible uses stories of violence to indicate the ways of our forefathers. But the whole locus of it, even before you start on the New Testament, is a trend towards peace and understanding. Moses's contemporaries may have though God angry and whimsical but by the time of Jonah he is the still small voice of calm by your side. He no longer lives on the top of a mountain throwing lightening rods at us and he's for everybody, not just your tribe. This isn't inconsisntency in the Bible or a change in God, it is a change in man's understanding of Him as time progresses. God comes out of the Old Testament as a man walking towards you out of the mist.<BR/><BR/>The Koran, by contrast, has lots of nice things to say about our fellow man at the beginning but by the end it's all death and smiting. There has been no attempt that I am aware of to make the earlier passages superior to the later ones. This is the reason that many Muslims support violence. The clear locus of the Koran as a whole leads them towards it.<BR/><BR/>It is extremely difficult to read the Bible, understand what it's getting at and come to any other conclusion that you should love your fellow man. With the Koran it's the other way round; it take great mental strength not to avoid its seemingly obvious conclusion: kill kaffas.Scary Biscuitshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03039289019338752778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-86997949447233168842009-02-13T16:33:00.000+00:002009-02-13T16:33:00.000+00:00Anonymous @1547: 'The Muslims are our Jews'. Funny...Anonymous @1547: 'The Muslims are our Jews'. Funny: I must have missed the bits in my German history text books which described the mass murders by Germans Jewish conspirators of their fellow citizens c1918-33; the way Jewish community leaders attempted to create 'no go' areas for the German rule of law; the violent protests and threats against politicians by German Jews whenever anyone criticised the Torah; the way the Weimar government bent over to accommodate extremist Jewish lobby groups out of fear of those threats; and the complicity of the silent majority of moderate Jews who failed to take action against the extremists in their communities...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-54581528440896245822009-02-13T16:16:00.000+00:002009-02-13T16:16:00.000+00:00Interesting, but you misunderstand not so much the...Interesting, but you misunderstand not so much the blunt distinction between Old and New Testament, but rather the importance of the transition between old and new covenants. Juxtaposing quotes from OT and NT often creates fallacies and I'm afraid a few of your examples do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-76029303690040249292009-02-13T15:53:00.000+00:002009-02-13T15:53:00.000+00:00Alex has sussed it out well, some others here have...Alex has sussed it out well, some others here have "missed it", which is a shame.<BR/><BR/>There is considerable merit in taking a step back, clearing the mind of prejudice (in its literal sense of pre-judging) and realising the difference between God's actual Word and the attempts of (often corrupt and self-serving) men to twist meanings and actions to suit their own agenda — which is exactly what we see in much of the Islamic world today.<BR/><BR/>That stuff is the devil's work; and no amount of misdirection and obfuscation will change the reality just to suit someone's preferred outlook. The spiritual war is real and ongoing!John M Wardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06251285057595626917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-88088163593234171002009-02-13T15:47:00.000+00:002009-02-13T15:47:00.000+00:00Howard Katz makes some interesting points on the O...Howard Katz makes some interesting points on the OT verses the NT.<BR/>The OT being based on Mosaic Law. an eye for an eye, keep the rewards of your labour, and the Jews were successful. Whereas the NT is basically communist, turn the other cheek, the rich man can't get into heaven etc. When this was introduced in the Western Roman Empire, it collapsed, much like Britain is today.<BR/>The Koran follows more closely to Mosaic Law, so if the muslims take over at least burglary would be down.<BR/>But I still think most Muslims will be chased out of the country when the economy collapses, the decision to ban the Dutchman, the non response of the Tories, should push more towards the BNP, as we seem to be following the Weimer path. The Muslims are our Jews.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-72602705903916416672009-02-13T15:13:00.000+00:002009-02-13T15:13:00.000+00:00As has already been mentioned, you cannoty isolate...As has already been mentioned, you cannoty isolate the New Testament as not connected withteh Old. The New testmaent is based entirely on prophecy of the Old. And I'm sorry, but the New Testament has a lot of violence in it. <BR/><BR/>You are piecemeal choosing the nice bits in the same way that loony people piecemeal pick the bad bits in the Koran I'm afraid. There is ample content in the Koran that can be used as you are using the New Testament to portray Islam as a religion of peace as well.<BR/><BR/>However, we are diverting away from the point of the counterfactual here, that being that if the boot was on the other foot there would not likely be the same sort of reaction and ban. <BR/><BR/>In my view, there shouldnt be bans at all, however, back on your point, I;m afraid I cannot agree with you that the New Testament is about love and peace, it is patently not, it contains just as much damnation to Hell and violence as the first, and it is also instrcuts antiquated opinion on, for example, the subjugation of women which I note you dismiss as "guff".<BR/><BR/>Bottom line is this, Christinaity and Islam, in their totality contain violence towards non-believers fro both God and instructions to followers. Trying to separte out the New testament from the Old Testament when it suits an argument is also weak.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-2532440809212140242009-02-13T15:05:00.000+00:002009-02-13T15:05:00.000+00:00dizzy said... Actually you don;t have to put them ...<I>dizzy said... <BR/>Actually you don;t have to put them in context at all.</I><BR/><BR/>Of course you do. If you read any verse of the Bible you have to read the verses before and after to understand its meaning. good example is the verse from Mark 7, which you quoted in isolation as though it was part of the gospel teaching. It wasn't it was a law quoted by Jesus as an example of an Old Testament law for which the Pharisees had created a loophole.<BR/><BR/>"The Bible and the Koran contain, in equal measure, hatred and violence in the name of faith and belief."<BR/><BR/>The New Testament does not, particularly in the Gospel texts. Unlike the Koran, the New Testament does not tell believers to kill non-believers. The Koran, purportedly a transcription of the words of Mohammed is very graphic in its instructions.<BR/><BR/>If later Christians have waged Holy Wars, that should be a lesson on the dangers of organised religion.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13775753218753337766noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-89901567291162514022009-02-13T15:01:00.000+00:002009-02-13T15:01:00.000+00:00AS someone who grew up in an evangelical Christian...AS someone who grew up in an evangelical Christian household (but is not a believer) I can concur with the points regarding the Old Testament. The whole point of 'christianity' is that Christ came to provide a new way of living (the 'new testament') that would do away with the Old Testament rules. The Jews rejected it, and him obviously(!), and still follow the Old Testament. Christianity is based on the New Testament - all the basic tenets such as turning the other cheek, blessed are the meek etc originate there. <BR/><BR/>While there may be one or two verses in the New Testament that could be interpreted in an iffy way, the central message of Christianity is peaceful, of being responsible for your own actions, and having to suffer the consequences in the hereafter. It specifically tells Christians not to judge others, and let God do that in the final reckoning. <BR/><BR/>I severely doubt that any Christian minister, however 'out there' would ever condone murder,let alone incite it, whatever the situation. Yet we see many Islamic religious leaders do precisely that. Hence the problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-75517724466031940152009-02-13T14:53:00.000+00:002009-02-13T14:53:00.000+00:00Stirrer,I think you'll find that the God of the Ol...Stirrer,<BR/><BR/>I think you'll find that the God of the Old Testament who is wrathful against sin is still alive and well in the New Testament, exercising, and suffering, his wrath on the cross.<BR/><BR/>Yes, you are an amateur mocker, not a theologian.Peter Ohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06653736283239812968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-32963759730054750942009-02-13T14:42:00.000+00:002009-02-13T14:42:00.000+00:00It's an interesting post in that it raises the que...It's an interesting post in that it raises the question of why Christians do not use the biblical passages you quote as excuses for barbarity and violence, when *some* Muslims thus use the Koran. <BR/><BR/>I think the answer is simply that Christians used to behave that way until the emergence of constraining secular laws in a secular society. Remove that society with its laws and the Christians will be right back torturing and burning.<BR/><BR/>There will be trends to violence in Islamic societies so long as they are theocracies. If secularism withdraws, violent religion re-emerges (see USA).<BR/><BR/>The violence of Sharia law should not be confused with the violence of 7/7 or 9/11 (assuming Islamists to have been responsible). The first is simple and inexcusable barbarism but the second can be explained, if not excused, as violent responses to violent provocations.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, Wilder should not have been prevented entry. We have moved into the dangerous area where you can be punished, not for something you have done, but for something you might do.Vronskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17797785918817375436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-48437174793506238522009-02-13T14:41:00.000+00:002009-02-13T14:41:00.000+00:00The poor old Christians are very vulnerable in the...The poor old Christians are very vulnerable in their acceptance of the Old Testament, but they can't reject it for two reasons (there may be more, but I'm only an amateur mocker of religion rather than a proper theologian):-<BR/><BR/>1. Their original mission was to convert the Jews by arguing that JC was the messiah: to do that they could not reject the OT without alienating their market. Then Paul spoiled the party by going after the gentile vote, whereupon the OT became irrelevant, but they retained it out of habit;<BR/><BR/>2. Part of the justification for presenting JC as the messiah was that it had been foretold. They could hardly dispose of the prophecies, all in the OT, whilst maintaining that stance.<BR/><BR/>So they are left arguing that the wrath, vengeance and whimsically cruel god of the OT has done the anger management course, to be reborn as the beatific, pacific character of the NT.<BR/><BR/>Islam, by contrast, is perfectly clear about its aim of world domination. It is expansionist and gives unbelievers two chances: convert or get your head cut off. Just because most Moslems are quiet now, don't imagine it'll be like that when their higher birth-rate plus immigration propels them into the majority. We'll get the full middle-ages system of judicial murder, religious police, public executions etc then. <BR/><BR/>Wish there were a god I could ask him or her to protect my grandchildren. Especially the girls. They'll need it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com