tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post8596556295452294874..comments2023-12-11T08:49:46.305+00:00Comments on Dizzy Thinks: The Great Mortgage Insurance Swindle - Brown 'lies' to ParliamentUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-82804428294548035652009-02-19T11:15:00.000+00:002009-02-19T11:15:00.000+00:00This deal now seems to pale into inconsideration i...This deal now seems to pale into inconsideration in my view, it was just a another straw clutched at for another headline. Ironically, I think Brown is best served by bad news if he wants to serve another term.<BR/><BR/>The market share was certainly misleading but whats 20% between friends!<BR/><BR/>Few people will benefit from this scheme - Just look at the numbers in the recovery plan in the states - Astonishing!<BR/><BR/>Tim<BR/><A HREF="http://www.superquote.com" REL="nofollow">Superquote</A>tdl123https://www.blogger.com/profile/11843818038959564232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-38689509989689684172008-12-10T21:51:00.000+00:002008-12-10T21:51:00.000+00:00I have a slightly different take on this.The botto...I have a slightly different take on this.<BR/><BR/>The bottom line is that right now the UK economy is at breaking point. Traditionally the UK's economy is powered by the housing market, which as you all know, has been decimated by the credit crunch. This underwriting of the mortgage marketet could be just the thing the UK needs to get moving once again.<BR/><BR/>HOWEVER, I think its worth making the point that if the government has messed up its figures (and you rightly have pointed out in your article above this has happened already in this very issue) it could effectively starve the mortgage lenders. Don't forget that these lenders have all ( bar HSBC ) had to borrow money to restore their liquidity.<BR/><BR/>Any way for more detailed info on my take click on the title of my post "<A HREF="http://www.life-assurance-bureau.co.uk/family-finance/2008/12/04/good-ol-gordon-the-white-knight-again/" REL="nofollow">Good Ol’ Gordon - the white knight again?</A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-67159451811721767932008-12-07T11:36:00.000+00:002008-12-07T11:36:00.000+00:00So, where is the money going to come from to servi...So, where is the money going to come from to service those loans for 2 years? The banks will need to find the money in some way, because they don't own the debt but borrowed it themselves.<BR/><BR/>So, the government needs to do more than guarantee, they would need to actually pay out from day 1, as a benefit that is secured on the house, and then of course it raises all sorts of questions about sharing the spoils of the repossession that will happen in many cases in the end anyway -- and what houses will be worth in 2 years time is also another question... probably 30-50% of the current prices.<BR/><BR/>As a side note, we keep hissing and cussing about stupid government ideas -- can anyone remember a sensible policy we actually all liked, or at least respected because it was born of common sense?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-6816000648087339212008-12-05T09:48:00.000+00:002008-12-05T09:48:00.000+00:00If you read the comments you will see that it is i...If you read the comments you will see that it is in quotes to shut someone up.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-5795284674420277202008-12-05T09:44:00.000+00:002008-12-05T09:44:00.000+00:00I think the deficiency in your posting is that you...I think the deficiency in your posting is that you say that "the figure of 70% is a 'lie'".<BR/>I don't understand what the difference is between a 'lie' and a lie. If you want to accuse Brown of lying - and God knows people should because he does it all the time - then just say he is lying. To place the word in speech marks indicates that you are using the word without any real conviction and sugests that your true meaning is something other than that he is lying without saying what that meaning is. In fact, I'd be grateful if you'd clarify: is he lying or isn't he? In thiscontext you might want to look at Jeff Randal's piece this morning on the need for plain speaking on matters of public importance.<BR/><BR/>Otherwise, keep up the good work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-91910128871661640122008-12-04T21:58:00.000+00:002008-12-04T21:58:00.000+00:00Brown is sunk!Brown is sunk!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-25330329869631197822008-12-04T20:25:00.000+00:002008-12-04T20:25:00.000+00:00Professional user - now home from work:The figures...Professional user - now home from work:<BR/><BR/>The figures are collected monthly by the BOE. The various definitions, etc can be found on their website here:<BR/>http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/reporters/index.htm<BR/><BR/>The data used above is compiled using form IC<BR/><BR/>http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/reporters/defs/defs.htm#IC<BR/><BR/>Being technical here, and probably boring. Banks and Bsocs are collectively known as Monetary Financial Institutions (MFIs) in monetary statistics. MFIs are, historically speaking, the only institutions that can create money by taking deposits and making loans. Now the growth of off balance sheet vehicles has screwed this neat definition up.<BR/><BR/>Other specialist lenders (e.g. granite from Northern Rock) are not, in economist terms, MFIs. They cannot 'create money' (which MFIs can, they take £10 of deposits and lend out £10, total 'money' now £20, £10 created), as they don't take deposits.<BR/><BR/>They are also legally separate, bankrupt remote entities. Therefore, even though usually entirely controlled by a bank - they are not included as banks in the data. This really mucks lots of things up for example this recent release:<BR/><BR/>http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/statistics/fm4/current/index.htm<BR/><BR/>Which shows money supply exploding but actually just represents moves within banking groups.<BR/><BR/>To answer one query - if I get a mortgage from NR, it shows up in the 'bank' section, the moment that loan is moved to 'granite', my loan moves to ;the other specialist' section.<BR/><BR/>Sorry to be a bore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-58815469124905023472008-12-04T19:59:00.000+00:002008-12-04T19:59:00.000+00:00Another angle - Though GB may have been pleased wi...Another angle - Though GB may have been pleased with 'Middle Class Mortgage Safety Net' headlines, it may not play well with everyone. I for one felt annoyed that he sees the need to try to draw us into his client state. To quote Joyce: 'what is the proudest word you will ever hear from an Englishman's mouth?..."I paid my way. I never borrowed a shilling in my life".'<BR/><BR/>Update the currency, restrict it (for current purposes) to the middle class and accept that mortgage is seen as different from an ordinary debt and the sentiment still applies for many.<BR/><BR/>Worse than a pair of socks for Christmas you don't want, this is a 'gift' which is actually offensive. As Dizzy says, it's a private transaction - there's no call for paternalistic interference.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-45793288803665548912008-12-04T19:54:00.000+00:002008-12-04T19:54:00.000+00:006.30 news ITV 3/12/08 Daisy McAndrew reported bank...6.30 news ITV 3/12/08 <BR/>Daisy McAndrew reported banks had not been consulted on detail and were in the dark about mortgage scheme.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-87822600105363337512008-12-04T16:39:00.000+00:002008-12-04T16:39:00.000+00:00"Actually I just did the maths"Yeah, wrongly."Actually I just did the maths"<BR/><BR/>Yeah, wrongly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-31801493296529874622008-12-04T16:32:00.000+00:002008-12-04T16:32:00.000+00:00"So you mean that Brown may be right and Dizzy wro..."So you mean that Brown may be right and Dizzy wrong?"<BR/><BR/>Actually I just did the maths and Brown's figure would still be wrong. I would also be inetrested to know if the securitisations, as metnoned, are considered to be mortgages from the Bank that controlled them or not in this case. <BR/><BR/>For example, you can have a Barclays Bank Mortgage or a Gracechurc Mortgage. Would that mean that the Gracechrcuh mortgage would be considered a Barclays mortgage or not? I'm not sure so it's a genuine question.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-39847316150467613412008-12-04T16:29:00.000+00:002008-12-04T16:29:00.000+00:00Good point Dizzy. The way these figures are presen...Good point Dizzy. The way these figures are presented is a long way from transparent. It seems that no-one apart from 'professional users' can actually understand what the hell they mean which is hardly a good state of affairs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-18419603969342965212008-12-04T16:27:00.000+00:002008-12-04T16:27:00.000+00:00Anon @ 16:22So you mean that Brown may be right an...Anon @ 16:22<BR/><BR/>So you mean that Brown may be right and Dizzy wrong? Deeply annoying but interesting! Thanks for your clarification.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-22102842487471764642008-12-04T16:26:00.000+00:002008-12-04T16:26:00.000+00:00I shan't attempt to dispute that but am curious to...I shan't attempt to dispute that but am curious to know what the BoE figures consider "Banks" in that case? Any idea why they would title the section "Other Specialist Morgage Lenders (incl building society subsidiaries, securitsations etc)" and not include the word bank in there too? <BR/><BR/>Like, I say, not duisputing what you say just wondering why the figures would make the defintion in one case but not the other.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-83622084726124616112008-12-04T16:22:00.000+00:002008-12-04T16:22:00.000+00:00Speaking as proffessional user of these figures......Speaking as proffessional user of these figures...<BR/><BR/>Many of the 'specialist lender' loans are actually banks. E.g. Northern Rocks securitisation vehicle Granite is included in there. Most of B&B's lending is through 'Mortgage Express', a 'specialist lender', Abbey's vehicle 'Holmes' is in there too as are 'Gracechurch' from barclays. At least three quarters of the specilaist lender section is bank controlled.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-8470727395567850622008-12-04T15:47:00.000+00:002008-12-04T15:47:00.000+00:00Fine.Fine.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-74141466471439109182008-12-04T15:35:00.000+00:002008-12-04T15:35:00.000+00:00Well, by your standards this post was not particul...Well, by your standards this post was not particularly well written, so maybe I have misunderstood what you are saying.<BR/><BR/>What is not clear to me is whether the 'market share' section for each year refers to a) percentage share of outstanding balances b) percentage share of advances c) percentage share of total number of mortgage holders. I think that you are not clear on this in your post either. And so your 'point' is lost for me because of this lack of clarity.<BR/><BR/>I suspect this is becoming boring for others, so perhaps we should agree to disagree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-691512609620058072008-12-04T15:25:00.000+00:002008-12-04T15:25:00.000+00:00errr...."The banks, and by that I mean all banks, ...errr....<BR/><BR/>"The banks, and by that I mean all banks, not just these eight, had, as of July 2008, £635,130 million of the £1,214,148 million worth of mortgages held in the UK."<BR/><BR/>That is the outstanding balances part of the source.<BR/><BR/>"<BR/>That's 52.2% of mortgages that are from all the banks in the UK. The other 47.8% belong to Building Societies and specialist mortgage lenders such as building society subsidiaries and securitisations. The last time the banks (and again I mean all bank not just the eight mentioned) held close to that market share was 2002 when they held 69.3% of the market."<BR/><BR/>This refers to the markest share section fo the source.<BR/><BR/>I would say that far from me misreading the source it is you that has misread this post.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-74989642834547664152008-12-04T15:12:00.000+00:002008-12-04T15:12:00.000+00:00As you suggested, I've had a look at the source. A...As you suggested, I've had a look at the source. And in my opinion, you have completely misread it. Your post refers at one point to numbers of mortgage holders whereas the source on which you draw appears to refer to outstanding balances. I think you are very unclear on this and the point you were trying to make is completely undermined... which is what I was saying before!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-42748992969961072772008-12-04T14:58:00.000+00:002008-12-04T14:58:00.000+00:00You could just click the source linkYou could just click the source linkdizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-13997347808189040562008-12-04T14:52:00.000+00:002008-12-04T14:52:00.000+00:00DavidMI am more than happy to give Dizzy leeway to...DavidM<BR/><BR/>I am more than happy to give Dizzy leeway to make mistakes and I appreciate his corrections. In fact, I admire and enjoy his blog in general. But the making of mistakes, however explicable, does tend to undermine one's authority and credibility. That was my point. As a result, I am sceptical about whether Dizzy's analysis of Brown's alleged mistakes is accurate or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-9317820157490683092008-12-04T14:46:00.000+00:002008-12-04T14:46:00.000+00:00@Lord SnootyDizzy is a lone individual posting on ...@Lord Snooty<BR/><BR/>Dizzy is a lone individual posting on a blog.<BR/><BR/>Brown is the Prime Minister, has the full resources of the civil service to draw on and was announcing a significant policy in the primary legislative chamber of our democracy.<BR/><BR/>Dizzy is allowed some leeway on the odd detail (especially as he then issues corrections).<BR/><BR/>Brown isn't and doesn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-27187167307578054072008-12-04T12:50:00.000+00:002008-12-04T12:50:00.000+00:00Yes. He lied to the House. And not one 'gentleman'...<A HREF="http://prodicus.blogspot.com/2008/12/jaccuse.html" REL="nofollow">Yes. He lied to the House.</A> And not one 'gentleman' of the press noticed?<BR/>It's in Hansard. The banks said that what he said was untrue: they had not 'signed up' to it. Some of them had not even seen the proposal.<BR/>Stick to plain langauge. He lied.Prodicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18024865482933469271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-740447608420986222008-12-04T12:22:00.000+00:002008-12-04T12:22:00.000+00:00"I have put the word "lie" in quotes to keep you h..."I have put the word "lie" in quotes to keep you happy."<BR/><BR/>Thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-22202011.post-20806611843900912462008-12-04T12:18:00.000+00:002008-12-04T12:18:00.000+00:00Hah, talk about wanting to have it both ways! Even...Hah, talk about wanting to have it both ways! Even if I think 2 and 2 equals 5, it bears not relevance to the credibility of the agrument being made. <BR/><BR/>In respect of the headline, I have put the word "lie" in quotes to keep you happy.dizzyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04250325010662356883noreply@blogger.com